Once, years ago someone cited the music of Solefald as ‘music for eggheadbangers’. However with Bavaria’s well read sons Atlantean Kodex, you should never underestimate the ability of these articulate gents to produce music that as well as making you think, hits you in your metal heart and gut by producing some of the most epic, rousing and headbanging/fist pumping heavy metal around. With their 2013 album ‘The White Goddess’ already on its way to the hall of the all time classics we managed to track down guitarist Manuel Trummer for a little question/answer and a peer into the European poetic myth. What we returned with is a fascinating richly aware and passionate piece.
AN: Hi, and thanks for agreeing to the interview. It is a real privilege to be able to ask a few questions.
Now the dust has settled a little on what was pretty much across the board an incredibly positive and well deserved reception for The White Goddess album, how do you feel about 2013? Did you get to play live much in support of it?
MT: Indeed, the response both by critics and fans was overwhelming. It still feels pretty unreal to see ‘The White Goddess’ featured in ‘Best of 2013’ lists all over the world. We only played a couple of shows though, in Greece, Norway and the Netherlands. All went pretty well. Our favourite one was the show in Erfurt, Germany, though. The place was packed and the crowd was going absolutely mental.
AN: How does it feel to produce a piece of art that has resonated so strongly with listeners?
MT: It means a lot. It‘s an incredible feeling, you know, to kinda break through to the minds and imaginations of so many people. It means, we‘ve created something that will outlast us, because the people will pass it on. Metal fans will still listen to the album in 30 years or more. That‘s the greatest achievement for any artist.
AN: Can you give us a little background to the various members of the band? I read that one of you lectures in a subject not a million miles away from the theme of the White Goddess; is that correct? How did you get together and back in the days of the Pnakotic Demos was there always this intention to delve into a distinctly European esotericism?
MT: Well, you know, we all read quite a lot. There are members in the band who are experts in theology, there are others who know a lot about folklore, and eventually we‘re all huge fans of authors like H.P. Lovecraft or J.R.R. Tolkien. So that‘s basically where our stuff comes from. We always had that special interest in European mythology, but it wasn‘t our intention to head into this direction at first. It came quite naturally the deeper we delved into these myths. After all the shared cultural heritage, its myths and legends is what kept Europe together in the past 3000 years. Its cultural memory is spelled in the letters of mythology.
AN: As a band you have cited Solstice as an important influence amongst others and you do share an epic feel as well as equally showing no fear of stepping into an up tempo mode if and when the song requires. Atlantean Kodex though to me seem to have a sound much more touched by classical musical themes. Would you say classical music has been any influence on you?
MT: Yeah, I think it is an influence. I can‘t say that composers like Gustav Holst, György Ligety or Bedrich Smetana didn‘t have an impact on my songwriting. But what might be even more important are movie composers like Basil Poledouris or Miklos Rosza with their dramatic, cineastic approach.
AN: What is it about this wonderful music heavy metal that makes it the perfect vehicle for your complex and weighty literary themes? When did you first get into metal or do you think it was simply the music that you were born to meet and love?
MT: I think the key ingredient in all proper heavy metal is power. The power to stand defiant, and first and foremost the power of transgression, to cross the borders into unknown, maybe dangerous territories. Heavy metal can give you the strength to leave the shackles of the material mundane world for a while. Both by the force of its music and the power of its lyrical imagination. These myths of power and overcoming every obstacle put in your way is also what fascinated me as a teen, when I first got into metal. It‘s not your average brainless pop song. You can get lost in the lyrics and the music. It gives you a different perspective on your life. It makes you question authorities and rigid moral codes imposed upon you by your society.
AN: Being Bavarian seems to be an important part of your identity too. How does that come into the music?
MT: Well, the most important influence in our music is probably Bavarian folklore. You wouldn‘t believe how many folktales, obscure folk demons and strange folk customs exist over here. And it‘s not just your merry olde Germany thing, it‘s really heavy, creepy stuff. Corn demons kidnapping children and cutting open their stomachs, lost souls wandering through the moors at night and fiery dogs attacking wanderers. There‘s a whole cosmos of ancient tales and beliefs on the brink of being forgotten. Maybe we can keep them alive and pass them on to the next generation like our grandparents did.
AN: One of the most remarkable and important aspects of your songs is the almost frightening depth of the lyrics. Now I have really only a passing acquaintance with Frazer’s The Golden Bough and Graves’ The White Goddess so I hope you won’t mind if the questions are extremely basic as I am sure most if not all of your fans in my position would love to be pointed towards further exploration of the themes.
First full song Sol Invictus is a song based in fire and the Sun God and the Mithraic Mysteries; dedicated to Austrian fantastic fiction writer Paul Busson who I gather wrote a novel called The Fire Spirits (I have not found an English translation but I suspect from descriptions it may have possibly had some influence on the Tim Powers novel Declare), it also mixes in references to the Lovecraftian mythos. How does a song based in the masculine aspect lead onto the theme of the White Goddess? How does the inclusion of a reference to the Lovecraftian Goat Of A Thousand Young, one of his few ever references to the feminine aspect, fit in?
MT: I really don‘t wanna get too much into interpreting our lyrics. But regarding the masculine / feminine aspects in ‘Sol Invictus’ it‘s a quite common duality in a lot of European cults, like the ones mentioned in the song. For example the myth of Attis and Kybele incorporates the death and rebirth of the hero with a thousand faces under the guidance of a multi-faceted goddess of life, death and rebirth. But there are many more examples, also in ancient Egyptian or Mesopotamian mythology. Lovecraft‘s Shub Niggurath eventually is nothing else than the aspect of fertility in this three-fold goddess. We added this literary reference to cross the line between history and fiction and give the lyrics some more depth and scope.
AN: I tentatively grasp the idea of the Goddess, here, being Graves’ assertion that she is the poetic, distinctly European muse who seems to be regarded as both influencing art, such as yours, but the art itself in return strengthening the reality of the myth. Is this remotely close? I note that many branches of wicca post Graves have centred on the triple aspect of the Goddess (virgin-mother-hag).
MT: Yes, that‘s right, the triple aspect of the Goddess is certainly the most popular way of looking at her. Nevertheless Graves offers an interesting perspective by considering the ‘White Goddess’ as a muse. That‘s one of the main ideas of the album: the White Goddess as an impersonation of rebirth, but more importantly life and death. Through the knowledge that we are mortal she gives us the inspiration to achieve something in our lives. All history, all nations are made by men who try to overcome death by trying to create something that outlasts them. Thus the White Goddess becomes a muse who gives us the strength to live and be creative by reminding us of our mortality. Death generates life, death generates culture and art.
AN: I hope you don’t think this a childish follow up but rooted in pop-culture as I am it sprang to mind: Could the Cthulhu mythos be said to work in a similar but lesser way (I am thinking of its apparent use by some followers of chaos magic as a basis for a created pantheon and that links with the writer/magician Alan Moore’s somewhat wry resurrection of what he described as a neglected Roman sock puppet as his deity and muse). Do you believe that symbols can be invested with power, made a focus, through belief?
MT: Sure, of course! All the power of cultural symbols is just based on a shared belief and the communication of this belief. Even a fictional character like Cthulhu thus can become a symbol if enough people get together and fill him up with a meaning they all share.
AN: Twelve Stars And An Azure Gown stands for me as a pivotal point on the album. Distinct in its quieter facets, it begins and ends with a sample of Winston Churchill about the influence of Europe and brings in the Europa myth with the white bull (Zeus?) carrying her away. It’s a song that still gives me chills when I listen to it; a feeling of a great change, of disaster overtaking Europe but hope being there as the Goddess returns to prominence. Also a very European aspect is stressed with allusions to the European flag maybe. But also we have two distinctly masculine aspects appearing again with the flame of Prometheus and, of course, Churchill with his distinct references to Christianity.
Can you explain how the Goddess fits here: A rescuer? Or a point to rally around for hope? Does this touch on your outlook on Europe in general and if so could you expand on this?
MT: Here again the Goddess appears in the aspects of life, death and resurrection as an allegory for Europe itself. The lyrics adapt the ancient Greek legend of Europa taken by Zeus from Asia Minor to Crete. She in a way breathes life into the European civilization, she makes history by confronting the European leaders and nations with their mortality thus governing their decisions and politics, but she also personifies the hope for resurrection of a shared European culture as a unifying bond for the different nations of the continent.
The myth of Europa on the bull, in fact, might really be based on historical facts, if you consider the history of European civilization, which started in the Near East, before arriving in Crete. Ex oriente lux.
AN: Like the English Arthurian myths, this is a close mingling of some Christian and many Pre-Christian beliefs and symbolism (if you check many old English churches you will still often find pagan symbols such as the Green Man, for example). This seems to be a recurrent theme in your music. Why does it fascinate you so? Do you think that it offers a more rounded view of our relationship with nature? Simply the roots European mysticism/esotericism coming through people born into a Christian culture? Or just the poetic contrast of two seemingly opposed systems working together that intrigues you?
MT: You‘re absolutely right, when you say that in fact it‘s just a ‘seemingly’ contrast between Paganism and Christian faith. Both stem from the same root, and both make up the true spiritual heritage of Europe and the west. It‘s impossible to separate the two. Or more clearly: if you‘re interested in true pagan rituals and folklore – and I don‘t mean Asatru or some other New Age inventions of the last 100 years – your only chance to get the real deal is christianity. Christianity is our ONLY living link into the distant past. For 2000 years it has been integrating pagan ideas into its own concepts, thus keeping the traditions of our pan-European ancestors alive. It won‘t get more ‘pagan’ than Christianity, it won‘t get more archaic than a catholic corpus christi procession in Bavaria. Everything else, the whole Celtic, Germanic or Slav ‘paganisms’ are just constructions of the nineteenth century or later. Maybe that‘s what appeals to us: this living connection to our past as preserved in Christianity, this vague feeling of longue duree, European pre-history and ancient cults resounding in the rites of catholicism.
AN: Could you point me in the direction of any work which might help a beginner like myself explore these philosophical and sociological themes?
MT: Sure, go for the brilliant essays ‘Heretics’ and ‘Orthodoxy’ by G.K. Chesterton, go on with ‘Gestaltwandel der Götter’ and ‘Überlieferung’ by Leopold Ziegler and then round it up with some René Guénon and Joseph Campbell. If you want a quick summary of these traditionalist thinkers, also make sure to check out Mark Sedgwick‘s ‘Against the modern world’.
AN: Your first album was The Golden Bough, the second The White Goddess. Even back to the Pnakotic Demos days literature, including narrative fiction, seems to be a hugely important influence (I guess The White People was inspired by the Arthur Machen tale and I’m sure others I am ignorant of. I’d love to know the inspiration behind the harrowing Marching Homeward for instance) Where does the next recording go or do you not plan ahead that far?
MT: Well, the song is called ‘The White Ship’ and it‘s heavily influenced by the Lovecraft-story of the same name. ‘Marching homeward’ is nothing special actually. It‘s a classic sword-and-sorcery tale in the vein of Robert E. Howard. It‘s pretty close to the stories of his Bran Mak Morn-cycle, for instance ‘Men of the Shadows’.
AN: You seem to plan each gig pretty carefully, always listed as Annihilations. In the UK we have, in November, ‘The Annihilation of Glasgow’, a concert set up with Solstice and Dark Forest as an incredible support package which I am hugely looking forward to. How did this one come about and how do you go about presenting such epic and atmospheric works live?
MT. The show is organized by a student union in Glasgow. One of the guys contacted me if we might be interested in playing in Glasgow. Of course we were. Furthermore we asked him to put Solstice and Dark Forest on the bill, because they‘re two of the best bands around at the moment. It‘s a real honour to have these guys on the billing.
AN: Random last question (kind of inspired by the summary of The Fire Spirits that I read): Have you ever read The Willows by Algernon Blackwood?
MT: Of course I have! A wonderful, atmospheric story. Lovecraft was right, when he crowned it as one of the best weird tales ever. I like the slow build-up and the brooding, haunted atmosphere.
AN: Thank you so much for your time. Apologies again if my lack of knowledge shows, I’m a bit like a magpie as I see all the shiny things in a subject and miss so much of what lies below. Any parting words for fans existing or future?
MT. Not good at last words actually. Hope to see you at one of our shows. Thanks for the interview!
AN: Hope to see you in Glasgow!
Atlantean Kodex. A band who truly know the transportive and transformative power of heavy metal and who have a touch and attention to craft that makes their art truly stand out. Our thanks to Manuel for his serious thought and time with this. Like the music the lifelong passion shines through. Here’s to the Annihilation Of Glasgow.
Interview by Gizmo
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